I have been bothered a lot about the proposed free government health plans being pushed by our friendly democratic candidates.
Everyone living person is not born with the right to everything they could ever want; we are born to learn, be educated, and earn it. We have to work for it, we need to be producers. Our government is turing us into consumers. What is left after all is consumed? Nothing. What is left in the wake of producers? Everything! Producers never stop producing and the bounty never ends.
We all have the right to make choices that will affect ourselves and others. Unfortunately some choices bring negative consequences to innocent people, including children. While I think it is sad that some people don't have insurance they have made that choice. Some argue that children don't have that choice so we need to give give give. Well, I am all for helping kids in the right ways but their parents make the choice for them, they are their providers. I am certainly not forcing people not to be covered, I am encouraging them to better their situation so feel like they can make that choice. These people choose not to get a better education, to pursue and get a job that offers coverage, buy health coverage privately, and they don't make health insurance a priority. So because of their choices, in these proposed help-all health plans, I will loose my freedom of choice and they will reap the benefits. This doesn't make sense. The government shouldn't be able to take my money for something I already have and tell me what I have is wrong because it doesn't help Sally next door with her broken leg.
{grabbed this off someone else's blog in Google search: http://pearshapedfam.blogspot.com/2007_11_01_archive.html}
This also teaches people to keep being lazy because oh, some middle class or wealthy person will pay for my 'Free' health coverage, who cares if doing that puts them in poverty. My family comes first, not strangers who have made poor choices. If I want to help strangers with out health insurance my freedom and right to choose is to not do a thing, give them money, or donate it to a charity that helps people get health insurance. I have chosen to be covered and I am happy with my coverage just the way it is with out the government putting their hands in it.
In these 'Free' health plans I will be paying more out of my hard earned pay check for this insurance than for personal private insurance. Basically, the government will be giving every person in our nation a flu shot and I will be out diaper and food money for my baby. I will be forced to participate in a broken system that is bringing Socialism and the beginnings of Communism into a free county. A country whose purpose is freedom and life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. If this is the case why didn't the government force me to learn Chinese in school. No system is perfect but a government health plan would be worse. I like how the founders said "pursuit of happiness." That means we can choose to strive for and make choices to bring us joy or make choices that bring us sorrow. Under one of the proposed plans, if I choose to not participate, I will not be able to get insurance elsewhere and I will be forced to have my wages garnish or go to jail. I will take jail.
{jail photo: http://www.cobbsheriff.org/Detention/JailHistory.htm}
My right to choose in this plan has been taken away. Our country was created so that every citizen would never loose their right to choose and to be free to make choices. To choose not to have any insurance at all or to pay for private insurance for myself and my family is my right and freedom. Under this (Hilary's) plan I loose my right to choose. So I will be in a country where my freedoms are slipping away and my choice for private health care or no health care will become government health care or jail. When will this stop? It won't. Once we start loosing our rights to make choices like health care we will be told what church to belong to, how many children to have, and what our profession will be.
When did saying no to something become illegal? At least in jail I won't have to pay for the crappy government health care that I will receive, I'll have a roof over my head, and I will have three square meals a day. Sadly though it would put me with people who deserve to be in jail like thieves, murderers, and sex offenders. And I won't be able to be with Savannah or Josh, the two greatest loves in my life.
Where is this in our Constitution? Some may argue, well, you can choose to participate in the government insurance or go to jail, those are your options. That isn't the issue. Yes, it is a choice, but the choices begin before any government health care plan is put into place, before it is started. It is that I can't choose to have or not have insurance, it is being forced on me. I choose liberty and my right to decide who I will be covered by and the kind of coverage that is appropriate for me and my family. I should be able to choose to pay independently of the government for a health service they may refuse for me. If the people as a whole want this health plan it should be created so if you want it you can opt in and pay for it or opt out and still have the choice to purchase your own insurance. If I choose not to opt in I should be left alone to do what I will with no or private insurance. I absolutely don't agree with government insurance and I will fight it. We were given, by God, the land that we live so that we could make choices and not ruled over, told how to think, what to say, what to buy, and how to act. I will fight for my rights, how about you?
Where is this in our Constitution? Some may argue, well, you can choose to participate in the government insurance or go to jail, those are your options. That isn't the issue. Yes, it is a choice, but the choices begin before any government health care plan is put into place, before it is started. It is that I can't choose to have or not have insurance, it is being forced on me. I choose liberty and my right to decide who I will be covered by and the kind of coverage that is appropriate for me and my family. I should be able to choose to pay independently of the government for a health service they may refuse for me. If the people as a whole want this health plan it should be created so if you want it you can opt in and pay for it or opt out and still have the choice to purchase your own insurance. If I choose not to opt in I should be left alone to do what I will with no or private insurance. I absolutely don't agree with government insurance and I will fight it. We were given, by God, the land that we live so that we could make choices and not ruled over, told how to think, what to say, what to buy, and how to act. I will fight for my rights, how about you?
25 comments:
Fortunately the President won't be able to enforce any health care plans on us without the approval of Congress. And half of what candidates say they will do if elected never gets done because they can't get it through congress. Checks and balances.
Hear me out. Isn't it the exact same with our current tax system? I'm not saying I'm necessarily for the global government health care system, but it's essentially the way things work right now. Take the school system for example. We pay taxes so that all childen k-12 get an education for free. If we want to send our kids to private school, we can, but it will cost us extra. But we still have to pay the taxes. If we don't pay taxes, we go to jail. Likewise, there are plenty of countries whose education system is like our insurance system. If you don't have the money, you don't get an education. So is the proposed health care system really that different from our current education system? Would you be prepared to make the same argument against the governmental education system? Just food for thought. Literally. :)
Jenni, you have a good point with checks and balances. Our founder's were incredibly wise when establishing our system of government. However, with an amendment to the constitution the election process of the United States Senate dramatically changed and senators know cater to and preach whatever the public wants to hear. Many also are more loyal to party politics, special interest groups, and Beurocrats and do not protect their state's interest as they were originally intended to do. The same goes for the house. Many, on both sides of the pulpit do not represent the people's interest nor do they protect our inalinable rights. We need serious reform to restore the proper checks and balances and it is up to the people to create the change. Get educated and protect the Constitution. Thanks Jenni~
Molly, You are correct about taxes and education. Our tax system as well as our education are a very far cry from what our Founder's intended. The taxes heaped upon us are unconstitutional and are strangling our economy. With the tendency many of our lawmakers have of turning towards socialist government control, the problem is only getting worse. If the Federal government was operating within it's constitutional boundaries and the other branches of government were providing their proper checks and balances we would not be experiencing any of the economic woes that we are now facing. The free market would operate as intended and individuals would have MUCH more of their income to create value in the economy.. I would love to discuss this and answer your question more fully. I fear the space here is not sufficient. We need major educational reform and we need to teach the tenents of our governement along with the principles of the prosperity that our founders originally built in to it. Once we have a generation of educated citizens we could take this country back where it belongs-along with the prosperity that comes with adhering to those true principles.
I voted for Obama in the primary and I'll do it again in the general. One of the reasons I like him is because he is a proponent of universal health care, as am I. I like the idea of providing health care for those who can't afford it. Some people are less fortunate than others and it's their own fault. Other people are less fortunate and it's not their own fault. Some people, like myself, were raised in a family that provided them with quite a head start. Others are abandoned or neglected. It's a bit too simplistic to imagine that if we all give it our best, we can get an education, and be able to afford our own health insurance. A capitalistic, or free market society, by its definition, requires that some of its citizens be unemployed. That is an unfortunate requisite to capitalism. So, since we have a society that requires that some of its members be unemployed, shouldn't we help them out with their health insurance? How about helping their kids, too? Aside from unemployment, it's also naive to think that the country can be filled with only jobs that pay enough to enable the job holder to afford health insurance. Again, in a free market society, it's simply impossible. Since we admit that there must be jobs that don't pay enough for the holder to buy their own health insurance, we need a solution for those job holders. Even if we assumed that everyone in the country had the mental and physical capacity to obtain an education to obtain a coveted higher paying job, we can easily see that there simply are not enough of those jobs to go around. That becomes mathematical very quickly. So what if we made the jobs like janitorial services pay enough to afford the health insurance? Well, then we start to step a lot closer to that feared state of communism--a lot closer than universal health care would take us. Canada, UK, France, Italy, Germany, Sweden, Switzerland--these are not communist nations. I lived in two of them and it was fantastic. Having lived in them, I also know that better health care is available in those countries to those with more money. That would still be the case here. But we need to provide a base for the have-nots. Well, I guess we don't. And that is the crux of the argument. Should we or shouldn't we help them out. We could say, "Help yourself." I think we should say, "We'll help you." That way, twelve-year old boys like Deamonte Driver won't have to die of a toothache, which I personally feel is a disgusting situation. And I don't feel like putting the onus completely on Deamonte or his parents. Some people simply are not in the situation to take care of all their problems. Sure we can let them die. But I don't want to. If the rest of the western world can take care of their citizens health care, so can we. And anecdotal stories about their crappy health care can be mirrored with crappy stories of our own. We've even got crappier stories of our private insurance companies letting people die or suffer because they don't want to shell out the dough we pay to them. They even drop some of us and declare us uninsurable. Well that was lengthy, but that's how I feel about it. Go Barack.
I hate both of them and I hope they both lose because they are going to ruin our country and life as we know it will change and not for the better. I am a total anti-Obama and Anti-Hillary woman. Anyone who wants and sort of life/freedom should open their eyes and see what is really going to happen if they gain office. If you like life as you know it then you will re-think your vote and hopefully people will see how corrupt and evil their 'plans/renovations' are.
Good job for voicing your opinion. It takes guts to voice this so openly with such a broad political audience.
Oh and Josh...You should be going to school to be a history/political history teacher. You would reach so many people without pushing your beliefs. You are fair and take others into consideration. You lay the facts out and give your audience a chance to decide. RIGHT ON!!
One more thought and then I am done. I just read a comment that really made me think. If you say you are open minded and want better things to happen, then why the hell would you want these people running our country. Really open up like you state you are and see what is really going on and what is really going to happen. Open your mind and be true to yourself and see what you really want and if you do you will see that they will lead our country in such a way that it will crumble and die. Thank you, I am done.
If you had any idea how much my niece's bone marrow transplant cost you'd be singing a different tune my dear. They have medical insurance, good medical insurance. What would happen if they were to loose their current job? No private insurance would ever approve them, because she's been in the hospital for over 6 months. That's just one single example from my immediate circle.
Not saying that either Barrack or Clinton's plan is or is not the cure all. Just more food for thought.
I love comments!! I totally thought when I did this post that I wouldn't get any responses. Boy! Was I wrong! This is so great! I love hearing other opinions because they help me to change or strengthen my own. I also love that we have such great relationships that we can share our opinions and no matter how close they are or how much they differ we stay friends and we don't get upset.
It has taken me years but I am finally interested in politics and taking the time to form opinions and get educated.
Before I go on to personally respond to comments I wanted to say that while I absolutely do not support government health care I do believe strongly in "...obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." {article of faith 12}. If, somehow, those of us who fight against gov't health care loose over those who support it I will live it because that is what a good faithful member of the church does; we keep the commandments and we keep the laws of the land.
Jenni!! You are so great! I loved your practical response. You were like, BAM! It won't happen because history shows that Presidents talk the talk but don't walk the walk. And checks and balances. I love our country and how it was set up. I want to preserve it for how glorious it is. Checks and balances are not how they used to be but nevertheless good. I fear that one day, with socialism creeping into our country at an alarming rate, that our system will deteriorate and as Joseph Smith said, "our constitution will hand by a thread." How long will it be before we are in a dictatorship? In the newspaper today there were a few articles about what will be in 50 years. I don't know but I hope we will still be a free nation and living how the Lord would have us live.
Molly, I love you. I can't tell you how many times you have brought a different perspective to me that has helped me, I believe, become a better person.
After your comment I did take it as food for thought. I spent the whole weekend (not every second) thinking about how I would respond. I hope that what I say is a coherent response.
I think that if the proposed government health care system isn't exactly like our tax system it is very close. I believe that our government is great and does need reform to get back to how it was created. Like repentance, we need to get back on the straight and narrow because we have deviated on our path.
I saw two differences in how our education system is and the government health care, and I will state them pretty much in one fluid motion. The education system is already established and has been for a very long time while the government health system is proposed. I believe strongly that our education system is in need of changes. It sucks that if I choose not to put my kids in public school that I still have to pay taxes. It would be nice to have an opt in or opt out policy. Fortunately, I still have the choice to home school or private school and not go to jail for saying no to public school. While with government health care I wouldn't have the choice to pay and then get private health care somewhere else. I would have to pay for the government health care and only have that health care for coverage or go to jail. There is no option at all for private health care. We will be looking at government health care or nothing. In the school option it would be like having to go to public school with out the option of private school or home school. I want my options even if I have to pay public school taxes. So, with government health care, I would pay in order to "obey, honor, and sustain the law" but I expect the option to private health care if that is what I choose.
What I think is wonderful is that our country supports capitalism so if we don't have the money for health care we can get a better education or make the changes so that we can. If we don't have the money for the education our government offers programs so that it is possible; they have scholarships and loans and things like that. We are here to make choices not to have everything handed to us.
I wouldn't make the same argument with the education system because I still have education options even if I do have to pay the taxes to stay out of jail. I am not being forced into just one form of education. However, I would, after getting myself more education, propose ideas to better the system.
Did you hear about that university (I forget the name) that is removing the holocaust from its text books because it is offensive to Muslims? No matter if it is offensive to those who know it happened and lived through it. Who cares about he proof we have of the actual concentration camps and documents. I'll find the story and send it to you if you are interested.
Matt,
I think your comment was refreshing. You posed your position well. I too agree that some people are less fortunate at their own fault and others at no fault to themselves. I think that is why we have private institutions and charity to help. If we have the means, I believe wholeheartedly we should give. I agree it is unfortunate in a capitalistic society that some have to be unemployed but in this type of society you are not prevented from changing and prospering. Some changes will cost a bigger sacrifice and others not so much.
My little brother broke his arm and at the time my family wasn't insured. It was really hard but I am more grateful that we pulled together as a family and accepted service from others, lived with those consequences, and got through it better for it than to have just had a quick fix handed out to us.
I feel as though in a government health system I would loose some of my rights given to me when our country was established. I also see those rights to my fellow men be lost and that concerns me.
The Lord as told us to give and we have the choice to head that counsel or not. I believe in giving time, money if we have it, and service. I do not agree with doing so when it infringes on my rights. Those rights that our Lord inspired wise men to establish.
I am glad you had the experience to live in government health care systems. You have personal experience with it. I am glad it was good for you. Maybe my eyes aren't open but I see those systems as failing. I understand the good that can come from them and I understand the bad. Some of these other health care systems dictate what they will pay for just like private health care. It will never be perfect and the argument can go on forever. If we make the choices in our lives to safe guard against it adversity then it shouldn't be an issue.
Something I don't like is that if there is no private insurance option and the government rejects a service you need and you have the means to pay for it you may not be able to because the government won't let you. What will you do then? That happens all the time in Canada and Canadians come here to get those services. My Aunt is Canadian and I trust her when she tells me it is a broken system. Then again it can be argued that our current system is a broken system.
I am all for helping my fellow men and being serviceable. I am all for our country and how it was set up to be: citizens helping each other and running the nation with little government; the government being a tool we can use but do not rely on.
I agree that if we paid enough to cover health care to someone in a simple job it would lead to communism. I also believe government health care would too because it is socialistic and socialism is the basis for communism.
Nothing in our nation will ever lead to every citizen being on top but I think we have the best chances living the way our nation was set up and with out all these government handouts oh, I mean plans. Some government plans are great and very helpful and most are not.
It is sad that even in our system today people die from not being able to afford services or having services denied but there will be cases like that in any health care system. We need to choose the one we feel is best.
Cassy,
You make me laugh. Thanks for the props in writing this post.
LJ,
I can only imagine how hard it has been for Claire and her family. And that if they weren't covered that it could take more than a lifetime to re-pay the bills. Those bill may not be repaid even if you sold every body part. They are very fortunate. They are very lucky they have you.
President Hinckley said about the church giving aid to Africa, "I will not let political considerations dull my sense of mercy or thwart my responsibility to the sons and daughters of God, wherever they may be or whatever their circumstances…..[the people of Africa] are men and women of courage and character, but they are defeated and frightened by the terrifying circumstances in which they find themselves." This was written in 1985, but it's 2008 and in the world and in this great country basic human needs are still not being met. Are the commandments to help those in need, bear one another's burdens, and above all, to be charitable no longer applicable? It's true, many people try to cheat the system, but I'm guessing that most don't. There are countless people in America who find themselves "defeated and frightened" by circumstances that they never chose.
I don't know if Hillary's or Obama's plan is the right way for our county, but the implication that the poor are lazy, moochers, who won't help themselves is neither fair nor rational. Also, this problem is too big and too much of a gray area to be fixed by charitable organizations. Regardless, where is your sense of mercy and compassion?
I think the point is that a lot of us DON'T like our current situation. Lenessa and David's neice is one perfect example of the incredible shortcomings of privatize health care (which costs more per month, I'm sure, than Government health care would in a year, beyond the fact that i doubt healthcare in this country could get much worse)
My cousin is another perfect example. born with massive health problems that he had, and has, no control over, he's on medicare. which wont cover him in a couple more years. So when he goes back on dialisys, he'll have to find another way to pay the $30,000 a MONTH.
Problem being, he literally cannot legally have a job and be on medicare at the same time.
Is that part of the plan of salvation? I don't think so.
"The second is like unto it, love your neighbor as theyself"
As for corruption, I'd love to hear what part of a war (that cost 1.4 million every 7 minutes) to STEAL oil from another country, after rigging "democratic" elections, is legitimate.
I believe what President Hinckley said. My interpretation is that no matter what situation we are in and no matter the pressures for or against us we need to help those in need. I totally agree with that. We need to give of ourselves for the benefit of others as that is what the Lord taught and in turn we serve the Lord. We need to do our best because in the end it is between the Lord and us.
I may have been naive to think that this post would express my feelings strictly on the position of gov’t health care clearly and fully. Some of you have pointed out I missed some things and I should have clarified or made known others. I did see that some comments I made came across as one sided and not understanding. That is not what is meant. I believe I have a big heart and I do my best to serve those who need help. I don’t have all the answers, no one does. My opinion isn’t perfect and through out my life I don’t think it ever will be. There will always be the opposing voice but bottom line is we need to do what we feel is right.
Speaking on just this one position of government health care I have made my opinion know. I do not support it but that doesn’t mean that I do not do my part to help those in need to refuge. I certainly did not intend to have that kind of picture painted of those who are without to all be lazy and moochers. Do I agree that people in general are, yes I do because I see instances where I am selfish, lazy, and a moocher. Everyone does because nobody is perfect. I choose to show mercy, love, and compassion for others in the way I believe is right and that way may not be the same for you.
Maybe we will never agree on what is best for our country and its people and that is fine. It doesn’t make us bad people or uncompassionate towards another’s plight. I have done much service to help those in need and I will continue to do so because that is what I need to do. Something must be done to better the situation for everyone. I just don’t think that in the singular aspect of health care should be dealt with on the government level. I have said this before; I believe it is an infringement on our rights. My stance is not-to-not help people but to protect our rights. The rights that the Lord saw fit to give us. President Ezra Taft Benson said, “…the United States Constitution was divinely inspired for the specific purpose of eliminating bondage and the violation of rights and protection which belong to ‘all flesh.’” And “God placed a mandate upon his people to befriend and defend the constitutional laws of the land and see that the rights and privileges of all mankind are protected.”
Lastly, speaking of priesthood holders (which I also interpret of all of us), “He should use the political party of his choice to express his evaluation of important issues. He should see that his party is working to preserve freedom, not destroy it.”
You may not interpret these quotes the way I do. I believe, through recent experiences in my life, that I need to do what ever I can to defend my country against the Gadiantons in our time. They are among us now and are using socialistic means to destroy our country. In everyone’s opinions here I believe we are doing just what President Benson said, Matt for example, is voting for Obama because he believes that Obama will “preserve freedom, not destroy it.” We don’t have to agree and it is great to have discussions so that our eyes may be opened and to allow for clarification. I think we all are doing our best to show the love of Christ to others, we just may be taking a different approach.
Veronica, I just have to chime in. :) I respect your opinion and for the first time am starting to understand how good Christian people can reason in their minds against government assistance. Although it is personally too difficult for me to feel that I am being compassionate and merciful while at the same time opposing a better health care plan that can help more people, I see that you truly believe that it can coincide. For me, I don't even think it is our place to decide whether or not people could have helped their own situation or not. King Benjamin said
"16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.
17 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—
18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God."
King Benjamin commanded this not only as their spiritual leader, but also as their head of government.
I understand that you do all that you can to help others, etc. but personally I cannot reason away that there are so many American's without health care putting up their petition in vain. Can you imagine being a mother of a sick child and not having the money or insurance to help them? When I stopped working after Jane was born her insurance was dropped and I thought it would be easy to pick up a private plan. Since Jane spent time in the NICU after birth we were denied, denied, denied! Matt was making was too much for Medicaid, yet his job didn't offer health insurance. So there we were, we wanted insurance, we could afford insurance, but we could not get insurance for our 3 month old daughter. Did we somehow bring that upon ourselves? Can you imagine how that felt? The constant fear that her cold would turn into something far worse? Or how terrified we were when she was shaking and having difficulty breathing from a food allergy?
You could never convince me that the majority of the needy have brought it upon themselves.
Mark 14: 7
7 For ye have the poor with you always
1 Sam. 2: 7
7 The Lord maketh poor, and maketh rich.
A large number of homeless people suffer from schizophrenia. We enslaved Africans in this country and then pushed them into crowded slums and said "help yourself". We are still suffering the consequences of that. Is it fair to require that much more of a child who grows up with a cocaine-addicted mother and a gang member brother to overcome his situation and attend college versus someone like me who had all the support in the world? Come visit my home ward in Missouri and you will quickly see that many people in this country simply do not have the mental capacity to attend college. And as my dear husband already pointed out, even if they did it is an impossibility for all people in this country to attain a job that would either provide health care or pay enough for the person to buy it themselves. So what do you say to them? Sorry, I'll eat the produce you pick, and use the bathroom you cleaned, but you don't deserve health care like me and my family do. We went to college.
You say your stance is not-to-not help people but to protect our rights. How are Brody's cousins rights being protected when the only options he has is to not work and receive government assistance for his medical bills, or get a job and be required to pay 30,000 dollars a month, or die? Is that "eliminating bondage and the violation of rights?" That does not sound like his rights are being protected to me. And in a couple years he will have to pay 30,000 dollars a month, just to live. Does he somehow deserve that situation? Why not vote for a plan that can help people Brody's cousin not die?
And for the record, please do not say that it is government health care or jail. That is not true. Neither Democrat candidate is proposing a plan that will end private health insurance or employment health insurance. They are wanting to offer government health care to those that do not have it. The rich will always still have access to better health care, don't worry.
As far as protecting the Constitution goes, we have ammendments for a reason. Personally, I'm glad I can vote as a woman now. I'm certainly glad that African American's are no longer considered 3/5's of a person. When the constitution was written, health care consisted of a little old bearded man going to your house with a little black bag and putting cold rags on your head. How could the founders have put in place an appropriate way to manage health care?
In light of Easter, let's go with this analogy. You have 10 cousins over for an Easter egg hunt. You hide 6 eggs and give them clues on how to find them. Then you explain to the children that there are enough eggs for all of them if they just work hard enough and try hard enough. In the end only 6 children found eggs. Can you prove that the other 4 children didn't work hard enough? What if they had worked harder, there would be another 4 children without eggs. And so it is with our economy. There are simply not enough jobs that provide health insurance, or pay enough for private insurance, for everyone. There will always be someone without an egg. But in this case the egg being the right to life and good health.
Also, you keep mentioning these rights of yours that are being infringed upon? What exactly are those rights (keep in mind that it is NOT gov't insurance or jail). Is it the right to not have to pay more taxes? I'm sorry but that right is not as important as Brody's cousin's right to life.
Okay, I think I beat my husband on the lengthy comment award. I'm sorry to go on and on, but it is something I feel very passionately about and I just wish so badly that I could convince you to see that there are so many people that desperately need and deserve to have health insurance, and I really don't feel that saying to them, "Work harder and get it" is the answer. Just my two cents. I really love you Veronica, but would love you more if you voted for Barrack. :)
Ella, thank you for taking the time to comment. I can't say enough how glad I am that we connected. I am hearing what you are saying and what Matt and Kristen are saying and I am really trying to understand it. I mean, I read some of the comments and it took me three days to comment back. I don't know if it is possible to find a happy medium and I don't know if it is right or wrong how any of us are thinking because I believe there is good from both of us. And I know that life experiences factor into what we believe. I am sure that people like you who are so passionate help shape our country and influence others to be better and to think differently. I don't know if I will ever see the world through your eyes but I am thankful for the glimpses. I have a goal to always be open minded and with FRIENDS like you I am sure that I will have plenty of opportunities.
Now if only I could get like 20 comments on my other posts. I get totally excited when i get one.
Wow! If I had known what a great comment string this post would generate, I would have waited to post mine. There are a lot of things that I was going to say, but didn't have time for a long post. And in the end, many of you commentators said exactly what I was thinking. I'll just add a couple of thoughts and that will be it. Typically, I'm not that into politics, and I don't know all of the details of all of the issues. But, here's a thought I had while reading through all of these posts. Veronica, in your posts you consistently champion capitalism as the right system to live with and you throw out communism as if it was the evil to end all evils. Now, don't think I'm advocating that we adopt communism in this country. Communism has obviously led to many problems in many countries in this world. But, essentially, communism is founded on the same ideas as the law of consecration. Everybody helping each other, so that everyone has what they need. The reason that the law of consecration works and communism doesn't is the motives and principles supporting it. Communism will never be a good system unless it is run in a perfect world and with a motive of love for each other. That is impossible in our imperfect world and therefore, I don't think communism has a place in our society. However, capitalism is essentially the opposite of the law of consecration, so can it really be considered the best system? I really don't think that the Lord likes to see us living in a dog eat dog world where we all have to fend for ourselves and work hard to get what we need in life. In our capitalistic society, one person's success is always at another person's expense. I don't think any of the candidates have the perfect answer and I'm not going to try to say that one is better than the other. But, I feel that some system needs to be created where those who cannot help themselves (and there are those, who, try as they might, will never be able to provide for themselves everything they need) may be helped by those in more FORTUNATE circumstances. A system where we can, as the apostle Paul counseled, "lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; and make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed. Follow peace with all men and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord."
That's about all I have to say about that, but I would like to leave a comment in direct response to rockin' radicals' post of March 7, 2008 9:47 pm. I hope I don't sound like a jerk, but your post made me laugh hysterically because of its utter ridiculousness. Essentially, the idea of your post was that you should open up your mind because, when you do, you will see that they are wrong. That reminds me of a quote by the great Michael Scott. "This is an environment of welcoming, so you should just get the hell out." Maybe before you tell everyone to open their minds to how wrong someone is, you should open your mind to how many different perspectives and ideas are possible. Just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean that it's wrong. Just because I like chocolate ice cream doesn't mean that vanilla is evil.
I have a few items of business to discuss. First off, I'm very excited that the Benning Group has moved online and is located on Veronica's blog. I think it is very apropos since Christian and Veronica's Benning Group story of the double homicide committed on their pet rabbits is the one story I have retold the most from those wonderful evenings we all passed together so long ago. It always inspires shock and awe.
Now on to my specific comments regarding this wonderful thread. There has been a lot of discussion about being open-minded and bending minds and such. Before Descartes put forward his Method, he wrote, "I will at length apply myself earnestly and freely to the general overthrow of all my former opinions." That's one of my favorite quotes of all time because it is so important to free ourselves from the shackles of tradition and inherited political notions, among other things. That's not to say tradition or inherited politics are necessarily wrong, but it is impossible to really see them as they are when they are our masters, and dominate our thought processes. I'm with Descartes, blow 'em up and start over.
I'd like to blow up the idea that the founders of this country are infallible. It's simply untrue. Some liked slavery (bad), some didn't (good), yet still owned slaves anyway (very bad). Some had bastards with their slaves (bad, Mr. Jefferson). Some liked the idea of public education (good) with the idea that the educated would specifically be taught to value the state above even their own family (bad, and fairly communist). Some liked the idea of plucking out a few of the promising poor to be educated (ouch, bad and elitist) with the idea they then serve the state (again, fairly communist). Some of our founders didn't support the idea of a Bill of Rights. That of course was lead by Hamilton whose pride led him to being shot in the gut. His reasoning was noble enough (he feared delineating any rights would imply the omission of others), but our benefit of hindsight has shown the Bill of Rights to be invaluable in case law and the establishment and preservation of citizens' rights. They all had very different ideas (which led to feuds and personal grudges that lasted years--remember Hamilton's gutshot). They were great men (no women, of course--they didn't even think they were smart enough to vote) and very wise, but they certainly weren't always correct. An appeal to their authority is a logical fallacy. Instead of appealing to their authority we can appeal to our law that they gave us, the Constitution.
The Constitution is our law. But remember it's ours, not theirs. They are dead. We are alive and we are ruled by it, not them. The great thing about the Constitution is, the founders left it flexible, because they knew we'd need to make changes they couldn't foresee. Like the notion that black people are not property. And the aforementioned no-brainer that women can hold opinions and vote accordingly. Another wonderful change made to the Constitution is the 17th amendment which lets us as citizens vote for U.S. senators instead of having them chosen by state legislatures. Any amendments we badly need today? Yes. We need to get rid of the electoral college for the election of the president. It's completely antiquated and today only functions to effectively disenfranchise voters in all but about 10-15 swing states. It's like the pre-17th amendment situation with federal senators. The states of the United States are much more united today then they were when the Electoral College was established. We are a country now, more than a collective of independent states. As such, the necessity of protecting individual states is much less critical. I'd rather my vote be heard. I grew up in California. The most populous state in the Union. Molly, Jenni, Kristen--you guys can all sit at home in November. Cali will go for the Dems. I'd bet everything I own on that. Now I'm in Utah. I can sit at home here, too. Utah's electoral votes will go for the Repubs. Guaranteed. So we can all sit at home and let Ohio, Florida, Missouri, New Hampshire, and the other swing states du jour vote for the next president. What an absolute joke. It encourages horrible voter turnout and is an outdated system that needs to be changed. Well you can tell I hate the electoral college. But it just goes to show that what our founders originally intended may not be what we need today. So I'd like to blow up the idea that the Constitution is the voice of God written on stone tablets. D&C says God likes it, but it doesn't say he wrote it. If he did, he wouldn't have said any of his kids were only worth three fifths of what others were worth. And if it was his word, he wouldn't have needed to add a clause that states it could be amended.
So the founders don't always know what's best (remember, if they did, they wouldn't have had slaves and slept with them or gotten fatally shot out of pride, among other things). And the Constitution has needed some amending. Now I'd like to blow up one more thing.
We are not headed for communism. People it is 2008. Joseph McCarthy died in 1957. Let's not use communism scare tactics to try to figure out policy. We are so far from even remotely heading towards communism. In case no one's been paying attention, communism has been dying all over the world for man years. Russia (although horribly corrupt) is not communist. Fidel just quit and Raul won't be far behind. China's not through, but they are definitely becoming the newest capitalists. Don't fear a new entitlement program on the wild conspiracy-theory-nut-job notion that we will become communists. Social Democracy is a very, very far cry from communism, or even from socialism for that matter. Sweden is the poster child for Social Democracy. After them comes the UK. Are these countries communist? Are they headed in that direction? They aren't even coming close. And we aren't even close to social democracy even with universal health care. We are the western world. We might ought to fear corruption, terrorism, and the like, but communism? That is so 1955, it's not even funny. Joseph Smith didn't say the Constitution would hang by a thread. He said IF it did, the elders of Israel would save it. And he certainly didn't say if it did, it would be due to communists infiltrating our government and putting fluoride in our water (thankfully, dentists did that and it's working so far). So let's blow up the Red Scare.
Well that's all I've got. I just wanted to blow some stuff up. Remember, you know better than the founders what the difference between right and wrong is. We've got a lot more years of history, and experience, and non-philandering on our side. Let's think for ourselves and skip the appeals to authority.
Let us all ask WWJEFHD? Which as you know, means "What would James E Faust Have Done?" As the most famous Mormon democrat, he would've voted for Obama. Let's continue his legacy. Oh, and don't forget Hugh Nibley's a democrat. And Kurt Bestor.
Matt! I love you! (Ella--I didn't mean it that way...) Hahaha. You have blown up exactly what I would like to blow up. Veronica, Josh, and the Radicals, I hope you sincerely consider what Matt has said. Words of wisdom right there.
LOVE the Benning Group! And while I don't know if I'll have the chance to vote for my boyfriend Obama, I think I would like to. Of course millions of things could change between now and then right?
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